A Paso Robles twist on the traditional RhĆ“ne blend, with Zinfandel playing the middle component. Controlled Chaos has undergone some changes in recent vintages. The addition of Counoise has helped drive fruit, while the percentage of the MourvĆØdre component, always dominant, has increased. The MourvĆØdre is also now always fermented with 50% whole bunches, which drives the savory, smoky, meaty aspects of the wine. The use of large format oak (450-500L barrels) has also kept the wine tighter, brighter and more linear.
Vinification
All lots were handpicked, and fruit was processed and manually sorted prior to cold soaking until fermentation was started, naturally and spontaneously, by wild yeasts. MourvĆØdre was fermented with 50% whole bunches, while Grenache, Counoise, and Zinfandel were destemmed.
Ćlevage
At the end of fermentation, lots were basket pressed, roughly settled for 24 hours, and then racked to barrel. All varieties were aged in 450 and 500L puncheons. The wine was racked and blended in the winter of 2021/22, then returned to the barrel until bottling in April of 2022, after 20 months of aging.
We are a family-owned and operated, authentic wine producer located in one of the worldās most superb wine-growing regions and fueled by some of the most talented people. We believe in this place we call home and the handmade wines we have to share with you. We have come from other places and have varied backgrounds, and we are grateful to share this lovely part of California with those who are also drawn to Paso Robles.
We strive to make elegant wines with more nuances than sheer power. We utilize diverse varietals from exceptional Paso Robles, Santa Barbara, and Monterey vineyards. Our wines are made with minimal intervention and native ferments, and the fruit, acid, and tannins are balanced naturally. We embrace the growing seasonās inconsistencies and harvestās unpredictability rather than producing a standardized product. We are genuine in this pursuit and care about what is in every bottle. What you see is what you get; we are all here to show you around and to pour you a taste. Come for a visit.
Available States
AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY
Been members at Thacher for several years. Controlled Chaos is one of many fantastic bottles in their lineup. 100% must visit if you find your way to Paso.
@losthighwayz Probably? Iām horrible about keeping notes. Currently only have an 18 and 21 left in my cellar. It was really hard to pass this deal up at nearly 66% below member price (for current release '21 anyway). Unfortunately, our ācellarā is already bursting at seams with bottles, and spring shipments will be here before we know it.
Controlled Chaos is my theme for the year, so I appreciate that Thacher vineyards managed to bottle it. Natural cork had 1/8ā of dark staining. Wine pours a pale burgundy, lighter than expected, slightly cloudy with a brick edge. Huge earthy nose, smells like damp forest and autumn leaves with a touch of lavender or violet. Behind the earth notes are a hint of both bright cherry pie and brooding dark cherries. Medium body with a tart entry, full mouthfeel, coating the tongue with cherry licorice and baking spice. Real lovely balance. My wife, whose palate seems to be diverging from mine, thinks it smells like raisins and violets, tastes thin and tart.
Opened a bottle of 2017 Peterson GSM to make a comparison (yes, I know a MZCG is a completely different blend than GSM but I donāt have anything else that has Mourvedre in it. But more to the point, I wanted to open another bottle). The Peterson GSM is very dark Burgundy, bright, light and very clear. The nose is dark fruit and violets, the palate is youthful; big and full fruit with a hint of vanilla and cigar box, long clean finish of blackberries with a touch of tannin.
After some time to open and breathe, after a glass to compare, the Controlled Chaos comes across as a delightfully balanced, earthy, mature Pinot Noir. I donāt mean to say that by mixing 4 disparate grapes you can attain the grace of Pinot Noir, but this wine somehow evokes the essence of the Pacific Northwest versions of the venerable vine. It tastes older than the Peterson GSM, and completely different.
I found it noteworthy how pale the wine is, yet somehow dark. It is like āopaque pinkā, because it looks like it was once a fully saturated deep purple yet somehow faded over time. It reminds me of the Gersing Nebbiolo I had ages ago, where I was expecting deep pigmentation but they wine poured translucent and fragile. I would describe this wine as delicate, and the experience of drinking it is like a Monet landscape: more an impression of Venice than a map. Many thanks to Thacher for making a contemplative wine, to the Boys in Brown for delivering in time despite the weather delay, and WCC for pulling my name out of the hat. Salut!
How much more are you saving by buying a full case?
(Note: tax and shipping are not included in savings calculations.)
2020 Thacher Controlled Chaos Red Blend - $100 = 33.32%
Regarding the mention of a 93 point vinous review, unless it is hiding somewhere they never reviewed the 2020 vintage of this wine. Other vintages, yes. A couple of 93 point scores, yes. This wine, no.
@kaolis yea, a bit suspect that itās only vintage in CT that shows no bottles in cellars. Even 21s show up. Nowhere to be found on their website either
Is anyone else in the Kansas City area looking at this? Iād love to split a case with someone. Iāve tasted at Thatcher before, and bought a couple bottles. They make some good wines, and Iām in for this, especially at the case price.
@gbrokeshoulder@Savagesam I can also pick up the case with no additional shipping charge, but have a KS address to ship to. I think thereās still a tax difference between here and MO, isnāt there?
Their Cabernet is wonderful but does that mean this offer will be? The Rat review was very evasive with saying the wine is good and the reference to Pinot worries me because I am not a fan. Iād love to buy a case on reputation alone but very hesitant. The blend is interesting but not sure if thatās a good thing. Has anyone else actually tasted this wine? Itās a very good offer!
@lynnrae1 Personally I wouldnāt use the word āevasiveā to describe that Rat report ā to me, a statement like āthe Controlled Chaos comes across as a delightfully balanced, earthy, mature Pinot Noirā is pretty clear, helpful even. If you donāt as a rule like PN, or flavor/mouthfeel characteristics like those described in the review, it would make sense for you to pass on this offer, notwithstanding that the winery is highly regarded.
@InFrom@lynnrae1@KitMarlot
I too had a question on some phrasing in the review, which was clarified with some minor rewording and an edit following an exchange with Kit.
Iām hoping for some help in splitting a case following that exchange.
@lynnrae1 I guess I would take this to mean that the color and ābodyā are perhaps a bit lighter than one may expect based on the blend? That may or may not be a good thing based on your preferences. Cheers
@lynnrae1 donāt want to offer too much direction, because your palate is likely different than mine, but Iād say this wine is very light, has minimal tannin and muted fruit. Which I love, because I love Pinot noir and other delicate wines like the Tercero Cinsault recently on offer here. Iād say it is quite different than Cabernet, nearly as opposite as a red wine can be. Hopefully that helps.
@KitMarlot Thank you for your additional comments! Please know it was not my intention to negatively critique your very well done Lab Rat and I hope you didnāt take it that way, as others may have. I love a Zinfandel, not well experienced with the rest of the blend, and just trying to figure out what this would taste like! You have certainly done your best to help me with that. It may just come down to trusting Thacher to make a good wine and broadening my wine drinking experience! I do love Paso Roble wines. Happy New Year!
@KitMarlot@lynnrae1 I guess we are reviewing the review but that is the point of a discussion forum I guess. I got a lot from it but thatās because
I live in the Columbia Valley area of WA state and RhĆ“ne varietals are featured by several winemakers. One did a single-varietal bottling of a MourvĆØdre, something you rarely find (only at the winery). So anything mixing up this kind of stuff fascinates me.
Across the river you have the Willamette Valley region which many say is the finest PN region in the world. (Some French may disagree but I think itās true). Good PNs (or what I would call good) taste of dirt and mushrooms and leather. Very different from the bright red cherry of many CA PNs. PNs are very diverse that way.
So when I read the review I think I had a good idea of what this would be like. Yes itās kind-of a mind-F*k to say 4 different varietals assembled into a PN, but I didnāt take that literally.
I think itās great that this site has people writing Rat reviews in any way they want. Much better than canned Wilfred Wong stuff. Also sometimes we get cat pictures.
@KitMarlot@lynnrae1@pmarin
I pretty much agree with everything you say but saying French Pinot tastes like dirt and mushrooms and leather makes me think you donāt drink many French pinots or even Oregon Pinot?
He said he likes the Willamette Valley region. He enjoys the dirt/mushroom/leather style of Pinot Noir from that area (which are very different from the bright red cherry flavors of many California PNs). And he claimed many other people are starting to believe Willamette Valley is the finest PN region in the world, although some French people would likely disagree.
@REftw@rjquillin@REftw: Any chance youāre in San Diego County? or OC, coastal? If yes, Iād take some bottles or split (if rjquillin doesnāt end up taking anyā¦ heās first in line )
@LorriCA@REftw
Iām in San Diego east county; think near Santee/El Cajon/Lakeside,
work near Poway.
Would like to pick up or end up with three or so.
tnx
@LorriCA@rjquillin I am a little north of that in the Temecula / Murrieta area. Not sure if that is too far for you or if you would want to meet up in the middle somewhere. We do make it down to Del Mar occasionally when my SO has a craving for Salt & Straw.
@LorriCA@REftw
I have a co-worker that lives in/near Temecula that likely could do the transport if you or I need to do the buy.
Wondering where REftw since it appears a case has been purchased.
Iāll continue to monitor here for additional replies.
@REftw@rjquillin Iām in Carlsbadā¦ North County. Your two locations are fairly convenient (15 fwy) and my location is considerably further / more coordination. Thanks for being open to possibly sharing the case but: Iāll step out of it and leave it to you two.
@LorriCA you should make sure to join in the next LA/SD/OC gathering! Maybe @trifecta will host something again one of these days or even @rjquillin! (And we have family in Oceansideā¦)
@LorriCA@REftw
Seems like this could easily split three ways; doesnāt need to be equal. Iām good for 2~4 bottles, sure donāt need or have room for 6, that leaves plenty for the two of you. Carlsbad is doable for me as well from Poway-work.
Yāall let me know.
@klezman@LorriCA@rjquillin I might be tagged here in error. Weāve been out of the bay area for over a decade now (back to Seattle area). We tried the casemates gatherings early on, but they sputtered out And never revived in the after times.
@LorriCA@rjquillin@trifecta Oy.
I meant @radiolysis could host something in their general area.
Nice to see you here, though! Even if it was my error that brought you over.
@klezman@rjquillin@trifecta yes - would like to attend a meet up, sometime. I recall participating in a āsocalā thread here, a few years back. Please keep me on the notification list for any spring or summer gathering
@winedavid59
With all these splitting requests, I wonder if an offer of three or four, rather than the meager two, would have resulted in additional sales.
I know for me, it would have; two not enough, case, too many.
@rjquillin
That, or some Site Tools to help expedite splits? Lol, been awhile since I got on that soap box but seeing people feel the need to post their phone numbers in recent offer threads is sad (and a little worrisome).
To your point, I donāt see any reason why WD canāt dictate to participating wineries that all offers need to be avaliable in 3, 6, 12 and 24 bottle allotments, similar to how UC now does it.
Oddā¦I guess, coincidence? I was down in Ft. Lauderdale this past week. Wednesday, I was taking a stroll when I came upon a fender bender. Glass and metal were being swept up. The first vehicle I came upon was towing a fishing boatā¦ the name of that boat. Controlled Chaos! At the time, I was thinking Total Chaos might have been more appropriate.
Vino Noceto Sangiovese is consistently good but I recall one vintage (2016?) was off and found its way to clearance racks. I have a feeling this might be the case with this bottling. Bricking for a 2020 is not the norm. Neither is the lack of reviews anywhere on the net. My two cents
@losthighwayz@rjquillin I think he meant that itās possible a winery thatās consistently good can have an off year and massively discount the wine in various places. Like GO, here, WTSO, etc. I donāt think it was meant to be anything about smoke.
I was actually wondering if the 2022 Iron Horse Q Pinot was in this category given its discounted price on WTSO earlier this week. But Iāll have a few to experiment with at a price I wonāt mind if theyāre just so-so on the Iron Horse scale.
2020 Thacher Controlled Chaos, Paso Robles
93 Points, Vinous
Tasting Notes
Vinification
Ćlevage
Specs
Whatās Included
2-bottles:
Case:
Price Comparison
Not for sale on the winery website, $720/case MSRP
About The Winery
Available States
AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY
Estimated Delivery
Thursday, Feb 6 - Monday, Feb 10
2020 Thacher Controlled Chaos Red Blend
2 bottles for $49.99 $25/bottle + $4/bottle shipping
Case of 12 for $199.99 $16.67/bottle + $1/bottle shipping
Awesome case price! Sounds right up my alley. Bring on the rats!
POPSOCKETS! SPROCKETS! DAVY CROCKETT! AWESOME!
Been members at Thacher for several years. Controlled Chaos is one of many fantastic bottles in their lineup. 100% must visit if you find your way to Paso.
@cocacola08 have you had the 2020?
@losthighwayz Probably? Iām horrible about keeping notes. Currently only have an 18 and 21 left in my cellar. It was really hard to pass this deal up at nearly 66% below member price (for current release '21 anyway). Unfortunately, our ācellarā is already bursting at seams with bottles, and spring shipments will be here before we know it.
Didnāt need a rat. Looks delicious and is offered at a great price. In.
/giphy automatic-scandalous-candy
Controlled Chaos is my theme for the year, so I appreciate that Thacher vineyards managed to bottle it. Natural cork had 1/8ā of dark staining. Wine pours a pale burgundy, lighter than expected, slightly cloudy with a brick edge. Huge earthy nose, smells like damp forest and autumn leaves with a touch of lavender or violet. Behind the earth notes are a hint of both bright cherry pie and brooding dark cherries. Medium body with a tart entry, full mouthfeel, coating the tongue with cherry licorice and baking spice. Real lovely balance. My wife, whose palate seems to be diverging from mine, thinks it smells like raisins and violets, tastes thin and tart.
Opened a bottle of 2017 Peterson GSM to make a comparison (yes, I know a MZCG is a completely different blend than GSM but I donāt have anything else that has Mourvedre in it. But more to the point, I wanted to open another bottle). The Peterson GSM is very dark Burgundy, bright, light and very clear. The nose is dark fruit and violets, the palate is youthful; big and full fruit with a hint of vanilla and cigar box, long clean finish of blackberries with a touch of tannin.
After some time to open and breathe, after a glass to compare, the Controlled Chaos comes across as a delightfully balanced, earthy, mature Pinot Noir. I donāt mean to say that by mixing 4 disparate grapes you can attain the grace of Pinot Noir, but this wine somehow evokes the essence of the Pacific Northwest versions of the venerable vine. It tastes older than the Peterson GSM, and completely different.
I found it noteworthy how pale the wine is, yet somehow dark. It is like āopaque pinkā, because it looks like it was once a fully saturated deep purple yet somehow faded over time. It reminds me of the Gersing Nebbiolo I had ages ago, where I was expecting deep pigmentation but they wine poured translucent and fragile. I would describe this wine as delicate, and the experience of drinking it is like a Monet landscape: more an impression of Venice than a map. Many thanks to Thacher for making a contemplative wine, to the Boys in Brown for delivering in time despite the weather delay, and WCC for pulling my name out of the hat. Salut!
How much more are you saving by buying a full case?
(Note: tax and shipping are not included in savings calculations.)
2020 Thacher Controlled Chaos Red Blend - $100 = 33.32%
Regarding the mention of a 93 point vinous review, unless it is hiding somewhere they never reviewed the 2020 vintage of this wine. Other vintages, yes. A couple of 93 point scores, yes. This wine, no.
fwiw
@kaolis
While not a review, I found THIS from Tablas Creek interesting regarding some history of Counoise, and how to pronounce it.
@kaolis yea, a bit suspect that itās only vintage in CT that shows no bottles in cellars. Even 21s show up. Nowhere to be found on their website either
Truth be told, I got a case since it sounded wonderful AND my niece is attending Thacher school ā¦
Is anyone else in the Kansas City area looking at this? Iād love to split a case with someone. Iāve tasted at Thatcher before, and bought a couple bottles. They make some good wines, and Iām in for this, especially at the case price.
@worbx I would be interested in splitting a case.
@worbx I could do 6 or 4ā¦
@gbrokeshoulder @Savagesam awesome! Iād be happy with four or six myself; howās a three-way split sound?
VAN MURALS! GROUND SQUIRRELS! SPIT CURLS! AWESOME!
@gbrokeshoulder @Savagesam I can also pick up the case with no additional shipping charge, but have a KS address to ship to. I think thereās still a tax difference between here and MO, isnāt there?
@Savagesam @worbx 3 way works for me. I live in Kansas and not sure about the Mo taxes.
@gbrokeshoulder @Savagesam Cool, Iāve ordered the case, and will let you know when itās in.
@gbrokeshoulder @worbx Iām great with splitting 3 ways.
Such a fantastic winery and great winemaker . . .
Thacher makes excellent wine. Anyone in Columbus want to split?
@albish7 side noteā¦ bought their recent cab offer based solely on prior experience with this label and it was very solid
@albish7 Space is tight, but Iād be in for 3-4 if thereās another taker
Their Cabernet is wonderful but does that mean this offer will be? The Rat review was very evasive with saying the wine is good and the reference to Pinot worries me because I am not a fan. Iād love to buy a case on reputation alone but very hesitant. The blend is interesting but not sure if thatās a good thing. Has anyone else actually tasted this wine? Itās a very good offer!
@lynnrae1 Personally I wouldnāt use the word āevasiveā to describe that Rat report ā to me, a statement like āthe Controlled Chaos comes across as a delightfully balanced, earthy, mature Pinot Noirā is pretty clear, helpful even. If you donāt as a rule like PN, or flavor/mouthfeel characteristics like those described in the review, it would make sense for you to pass on this offer, notwithstanding that the winery is highly regarded.
@InFrom @lynnrae1 @KitMarlot
I too had a question on some phrasing in the review, which was clarified with some minor rewording and an edit following an exchange with Kit.
Iām hoping for some help in splitting a case following that exchange.
@lynnrae1 I guess I would take this to mean that the color and ābodyā are perhaps a bit lighter than one may expect based on the blend? That may or may not be a good thing based on your preferences. Cheers
@lynnrae1 donāt want to offer too much direction, because your palate is likely different than mine, but Iād say this wine is very light, has minimal tannin and muted fruit. Which I love, because I love Pinot noir and other delicate wines like the Tercero Cinsault recently on offer here. Iād say it is quite different than Cabernet, nearly as opposite as a red wine can be. Hopefully that helps.
@KitMarlot Thank you for your additional comments! Please know it was not my intention to negatively critique your very well done Lab Rat and I hope you didnāt take it that way, as others may have. I love a Zinfandel, not well experienced with the rest of the blend, and just trying to figure out what this would taste like! You have certainly done your best to help me with that. It may just come down to trusting Thacher to make a good wine and broadening my wine drinking experience! I do love Paso Roble wines. Happy New Year!
@lynnrae1 I donāt know at what point the report was edited, perhaps the version I saw was more conclusive than the one you read.
@InFrom @lynnrae1
Yesterday at 12:50pm ET
@lynnrae1 @rjquillin That would explain it.
@lynnrae1 no worries! And Iād love to hear what you think about it, always trying to improve my communication and interpretation.
@KitMarlot @lynnrae1 I guess we are reviewing the review but that is the point of a discussion forum I guess. I got a lot from it but thatās because
So when I read the review I think I had a good idea of what this would be like. Yes itās kind-of a mind-F*k to say 4 different varietals assembled into a PN, but I didnāt take that literally.
I think itās great that this site has people writing Rat reviews in any way they want. Much better than canned Wilfred Wong stuff. Also sometimes we get cat pictures.
@KitMarlot @lynnrae1 @pmarin
I pretty much agree with everything you say but saying French Pinot tastes like dirt and mushrooms and leather makes me think you donāt drink many French pinots or even Oregon Pinot?
@ScottW58
Thatās not at all what @pmarin said.
He said he likes the Willamette Valley region. He enjoys the dirt/mushroom/leather style of Pinot Noir from that area (which are very different from the bright red cherry flavors of many California PNs). And he claimed many other people are starting to believe Willamette Valley is the finest PN region in the world, although some French people would likely disagree.
TIL Casemates has an Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/casemateswine/p/DEs0dAYPhMB/
Anyone in the St. Louis area want to split a case?
Any SoCal interest?
@rjquillin I am in SoCal and picked up a case if you want some bottles or a split case.
@REftw @rjquillin @REftw: Any chance youāre in San Diego County? or OC, coastal? If yes, Iād take some bottles or split (if rjquillin doesnāt end up taking anyā¦ heās first in line )
@LorriCA @REftw
Iām in San Diego east county; think near Santee/El Cajon/Lakeside,
work near Poway.
Would like to pick up or end up with three or so.
tnx
@LorriCA @rjquillin I am a little north of that in the Temecula / Murrieta area. Not sure if that is too far for you or if you would want to meet up in the middle somewhere. We do make it down to Del Mar occasionally when my SO has a craving for Salt & Straw.
@LorriCA @REftw
I have a co-worker that lives in/near Temecula that likely could do the transport if you or I need to do the buy.
Wondering where REftw since it appears a case has been purchased.
Iāll continue to monitor here for additional replies.
@REftw @rjquillin Iām in Carlsbadā¦ North County. Your two locations are fairly convenient (15 fwy) and my location is considerably further / more coordination. Thanks for being open to possibly sharing the case but: Iāll step out of it and leave it to you two.
@LorriCA @rjquillin Temecula would work well for a meet up. I am off the 215 fwy/Clinton Keith but am in Temecula at least twice a week.
/giphy wasteful-maximum-seal
@LorriCA you should make sure to join in the next LA/SD/OC gathering! Maybe @trifecta will host something again one of these days or even @rjquillin! (And we have family in Oceansideā¦)
@LorriCA @REftw
Seems like this could easily split three ways; doesnāt need to be equal. Iām good for 2~4 bottles, sure donāt need or have room for 6, that leaves plenty for the two of you. Carlsbad is doable for me as well from Poway-work.
Yāall let me know.
@klezman @LorriCA @rjquillin I might be tagged here in error. Weāve been out of the bay area for over a decade now (back to Seattle area). We tried the casemates gatherings early on, but they sputtered out And never revived in the after times.
@LorriCA @rjquillin @trifecta Oy.
I meant @radiolysis could host something in their general area.
Nice to see you here, though! Even if it was my error that brought you over.
@klezman @rjquillin @trifecta yes - would like to attend a meet up, sometime. I recall participating in a āsocalā thread here, a few years back. Please keep me on the notification list for any spring or summer gathering
@klezman @LorriCA @rjquillin will do! itās probably about time for one at my placeā¦ I seem to be on a cadence for every 6-9 months lately.
Anyone in the DMV area interested in splitting?
@winedavid59
With all these splitting requests, I wonder if an offer of three or four, rather than the meager two, would have resulted in additional sales.
I know for me, it would have; two not enough, case, too many.
@rjquillin
That, or some Site Tools to help expedite splits? Lol, been awhile since I got on that soap box but seeing people feel the need to post their phone numbers in recent offer threads is sad (and a little worrisome).
To your point, I donāt see any reason why WD canāt dictate to participating wineries that all offers need to be avaliable in 3, 6, 12 and 24 bottle allotments, similar to how UC now does it.
Oddā¦I guess, coincidence? I was down in Ft. Lauderdale this past week. Wednesday, I was taking a stroll when I came upon a fender bender. Glass and metal were being swept up. The first vehicle I came upon was towing a fishing boatā¦ the name of that boat. Controlled Chaos! At the time, I was thinking Total Chaos might have been more appropriate.
Anyway, carry on with the wine discussion.
@Savagesam Thatās funny!
Just bought a case. I would be interested in a 2-way or 3-way split in the Marin/SF area.
@tercerowines Seems like would be a better offer if your friend chimed in here
Why is there zero winery participation?
Vino Noceto Sangiovese is consistently good but I recall one vintage (2016?) was off and found its way to clearance racks. I have a feeling this might be the case with this bottling. Bricking for a 2020 is not the norm. Neither is the lack of reviews anywhere on the net. My two cents
@losthighwayz
I wasnāt aware Plymouth and Paso were in proximity to one another.
@losthighwayz @rjquillin I think he meant that itās possible a winery thatās consistently good can have an off year and massively discount the wine in various places. Like GO, here, WTSO, etc. I donāt think it was meant to be anything about smoke.
I was actually wondering if the 2022 Iron Horse Q Pinot was in this category given its discounted price on WTSO earlier this week. But Iāll have a few to experiment with at a price I wonāt mind if theyāre just so-so on the Iron Horse scale.